Tuesday, January 12, 2016
The Great Gatsby Ch. 4-5
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When Gatsby finally met with Daisy, he was afraid to even talk to her. How can the attainment of the goal (Daisy) be less satisfying than the pursuit of the goal?
What message is F. Scott Fitzgerald sending to his reader in this chapter? Provide some evidence to support your idea.
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Getting something that you want can be less satisfying that the pursuit because most people heighten their expectations. They expect it go perfectly, or be the most amazing experience, when in reality it is average. Normality suddenly becomes a letdown, which is exactly what happens to Gatsby. He expects to sweep Daisy off of her feet just like he did so many years before, and be with her again. However, he is disappointed when he finds that their meeting is awkward, almost forced.
ReplyDeleteThe message that Fitzgerald is trying to convey is to never make your expectations unattainable; you have to be conscious of reality. This is conveyed by Gatsby's nervous disposition when he sees Daisy, as his plan didn't go the way he wanted it to. He feels that he shouldn't be there anymore, and even tells Carraway that the setup was a bad idea.
I agree with Paige in her claim that Gatsby's meeting with Daisy doesn't live up to his expectations. Gatsby doesn't meet with Daisy the way he planned to, and he is left disappointed.
DeleteAlong with Paige, I think the build up to attaining something you've wanted for so long can be just as defeating when the achievement finally comes along.
ReplyDeleteI also think Gatsby had made a world for himself in his mind. Beyond thinking he could sweep Daisy off her feet when he saw her. I think he started to build a world together with her, imagined her the way he wanted to, twisted her image and personality to fit something he could whole-heartedly fall in love with. Just like he was trying to hold the light across the dock, he was trying to hold the Daisy he had built across the reality.
Fitzgerald is trying to say that you cant build these fantasies in your head, while abandoning reality. If you do nothing will feel right and you'll shy away from it all as soon as you're faced with reality. Just like how Gatsby tried to run away from the real Daisy he saw, reality and fantasy collided not too prettily. Which could even relate back to the time period because all these partiers were running around getting wasted and ignoring responsibilities, while the real world was going on around them.
I agree totally. His mind is full of how great she will be but he was dissapointed when he realized she wasn't the "perfect woman" he expected her to be.
DeleteAgreeing with what Paige and Genevieve said it is almost a defeat when you've been working for something for so long and you've finally achieved it, but because it has taken so long it's not rewarding anymore and it isn't going to bring as much satisfaction as it would have if it was reached back at the beginning of the journey. Also, along with what Genevieve said about him making Daisy to be who he wanted her to be, he was left with disappointment, because he no longer had the "perfect" girl that he wanted he now had the real Daisy.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald is saying that when building these fantasies of people or the way you want things to be, you're going to be left with disappointment, because in a sense you've set yourself up for failure, because you have something that is far from what reality actually is. Yet, when looking at how Fitzgerald lived he went after many things and he in a way had to build a fantasy, because he had to do something that would make him strive to achieve his goals. When doing this yes it may be a far fetch, but he's also saying that there may be a slim chance that something will happen to make that fantasy become a reality.
I have to disagree. He is saddened, not because she is not perfect, but he had lost his journey and it will be hard to prove himself to the world. His goal is to prove that he is the best. He wants to shine in society. That is why he went for Daisy. She was impossible to attain so he went after her to prove that he was the best. That is why he uses extravagant parties to prove that he is great. :) He wants to be the best!
DeleteI disagree with Dylan because Gatsby isn't saddened that Daisy isn't perfect. He's sad because of all the scenarios that he had thought about while him and Daisy were apart. Once Daisy and him were together, Gatsby wasn't sure what to say to Daisy because he wasn't sure what her feelings were towards him.
DeleteDylan, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not exactly certain that he is happy. I actually feel that he's disappointed because of the way things turned out.
DeleteThe unattainable is fun to strive towards. It is the journey that is the true adventure, not the goal. That is what Gatsby is like with Daisy. He enjoyed the journey. However, when he finally reached his goal, he was saddened and lost because the fun is over. He got Daisy, however, how will he have more fun after he achieved this goal? He lost his fun. His goal was to have fun and show that he could prove himself. However, now that he got it, how will he prove himself now. He throws big parties and does a lot to show that he is great, but once he does so, what shall he do to prove himself even greater?
ReplyDeleteI would have to disagree with parts of this claim. Although I admire the fact that you have acknowledged the "hustle" of Americans during this time and their ambition to always strive for more, I believe that in the case of Gatsby pursuing Daisy, achieving this particular goal would be viewed as highly satisfying. If Gatsby had committed to pursuing several different women like he did with Daisy, I could see his ambition to "move along" and strive for even more. But such is not the case, as Gatsby spent several years in pursuit of this one girl (as far as I know; Gatsby seems to have had a blurry past, so nothing can be said with certainty). Because he only had eyes for Daisy for so many years, I believe that attaining this goal of his would, in fact, be very satisfying.
DeleteI disagree that Gatsby's goal was only to have fun. If all he wanted was to have fun, then why would he ask to meet her?He wouldn't have asked to meet her if he knew that the fun was only in chasing her; he would have continued the chase for Daisy.
DeleteI disagree that Gatsby was trying to have fun because even before he achieves his goal, he is not having fun and is depressed about something that he describes as a "sad" thing that happened to him years ago. He lost Daisy and the only reason he is throwing his parties is because of his hope that Daisy will show up.
DeleteI disagree that Gatsby wanted to have fun with Daisy. Gatsby didn't necessarily want to have fun with Daisy, he wanted to prove himself of the man he has become after they haven't seen each other in so long. He wanted to show that he has this big house and great life, with only himself to live it. Trying to convince Daisy that he wants her in his life.
DeleteI strongly disagree with this. Gatsby didn't throw all of his parties, spend most of his money, and chase her for years all for "fun" or to "prove himself." He did it because he wanted her love. He imagined her love being something incredible and when it wasn't, he was disappointed. He believed the goals was attainable, that's why he chased it for so long and did all of the other things that he did, not for the fun of chasing the unattainable - that's no fun at all and is a set up for disappointment.
DeleteI have to say I disagree as well. I understand what Dylan is saying and this is true in some cases but not in Gatsby's. This makes Gatsby seem like he was hunting Daisy down or playing games with her, but Gatsby truly cared for Daisy and loved her. Gatsby may have had fun when dreaming about him and Daisy but he wasn't doing this to have fun, he was doing this to find his "true love".
DeleteI have to disagree with Dylan. Just because he has reached his goal, that doesn't mean that he has nothing left to strive for. Now that he has forged this relationship with Daisy he can work towards building a life together. That can be his new source of purpose.
DeleteThis can be seen in Fitzgerald's life. His initial goal was to be married. Once he achieved that, he developed a new goal. He sought after more wealth to please his wife. His new goal was to satisfy his wife in thier marriage. (This is the case for Gatsby)
I also disagree with Dylan. I don't think Gatsby went into this for fun. I think Gatsby missed Daisy and that's why he wanted to see her again and imagined it to be perfect. If it was fun to go after Daisy, i don't think he would have been trying to meet her.
DeleteTo be honest, Dylan, I agree. I think that it was the chase, or journey as you said, that made it fun and worthwhile. Because it says that there was a satisfaction in pursuing her but not once he had her. This shows that it was in fact the chase that entertained him and his fantasies.
DeleteI would have to disagree with Dylan i do not believe that Gatsby wants Daisy because she is unattainable he wants Daisy because he is in love with her he has tried so hard to just talk to her and him being shy and nervouse shows that he doesn't want to mess that up
DeleteI also have to disagree it is obvious that Gatsby isn't playing games wit Daisy and Dylan, what your claiming makes it sound like he never cared about her. that just isn't the case throughout the book he is doing these things to get her so he can have his own personal fairytale he has been dreaming about not so he can just have her to say so. your claim could be used in other circumstances and holds true to some men and woman but no to Gatsby.
DeleteI disagree, but I can see where you are coming from. Gatsby just isn't that type of person, he may enjoy the chase, but he ultimately wanted to enjoy the fruits of his labor. He wasn't interested in "the unobtainable" he just wanted their relationship to be perfect, and he realizes this isn't the case after they are alone together.
DeleteI would have to disagree with Dylan about Gatsby not having anything else to strike for. Now that he has met her, yes he might be disappointed, but, he can now strive for a life with Daisy and continue to pursue the better reality of such situations.
DeleteI believe that the long separation of Gatsby and Daisy led to distorted images in Gatsby's head. He saw what he believed to be the love of his life on one occasion, and went without seeing her for several years. Throughout this time apart from Daisy, Gatsby had only that one meeting to base his thoughts from. As a result, what he pictured Daisy to look/be like had most likely been altered so much that his mental image of her was, in fact, quite different from the woman he encountered long ago. He had made her more and more perfect in his imagination as time passed by, raising his expectations beyond reason. Therefore, when he realized that his fantasies would only remain as such, he became disappointed and realized that the prize he pursued wasn't what he had attained. Daisy, of course, is not at fault for this, as some might say that she "didn't live up to the expectation" of Gatsby. Gatsby brought this sense of disappointment upon himself by creating a fairy tale that would never come true.
ReplyDeleteI agree with True Daisy was not the reason for Gatsby's disappointment he made himself think that's who she was leading up to his disappointment. Daisy never changed she was the same through the novel this far and in doing so she didn't let him down she may no have been the best to begin with but it isn't her fault he is disappointed.
DeleteI completely agree with True. The distorted images most definitely would occur from the separation. He saw her more perfect than what reality had for him. Once he saw her again, disappointment went for him.
DeleteWhen striving to achieve a goal, we think of how good it will feel once we finally attain that goal. After years of looking and chasing Daisy, Gatsby had created this scenario of how good it will fell to finally see her. Once Gatsby finally saw he, he didn't know how to react because it wasn't how he had imagined she would be. The scenario he created in his head didn't actually occur and caused him to not know how to react once he saw her.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald is saying that once you achieve your goal, it isn't as great as trying to attain the goal. Just like he worked very hard on his book to try and get his wife, but in the end his wife was awful and the thought of how goos it would feel to marry her wasn't what he thought it would be. In life sometimes the pursuit is better than attaining the goal. Once you get what you want, it isn't going to feel as good as you thought it would.
i agree with terra in that gatsby created his own scenario that would play out the way he imagined. its not that daisy was different its that he built her up so much that the image of her was smothering the real daisy. i also didnt notice that this was just like fitzgeralds relationship with zelda, its surprisingly similar.
DeleteThe attainment of Gatsby’s goal was less satisfying than the pursuit of his goal for many reasons. Gatsby had spent multiple years trying to get a chance to meet with Daisy and has worked extremely hard to get his dream woman. Daisy has a lot of expectations to live up to for Gatsby to be truly satisfied, and when he first meets her again, he may believe that he has done all of his work for something he didn’t really want or expect. Jay Gatsby threw multiple parties to try to get Daisy to show up, spending lots of money for no reason. Eventually when Nick moves in next door to Gatsby and Gatsby sees an opportunity to achieve his goal, he takes advantage. The message Fitzgerald is trying to get across in this chapter is that the world isn’t perfect and sometimes expectations aren’t always going to be fulfilled. Gatsby was nervous about speaking to Daisy and the way he met her wasn’t exactly the way he had planned.
ReplyDeleteThe attainment of a goal can be less satisfying than the pursuit of the goal because when someone imagines something, like Gatsby imagining meeting Daisy, they replay how they want it to go in their head so much that it raises their expectations. However, they never think that it might not turn out that way. Therefore, as it is happening, they really it is not going the way they imagined and makes the pursuit of the goal less satisfying than the attainment of the goal. The message that F. Scott Fitzgerald is trying to send the readers in the chapter is that even though things don't always turn out as you expect them too, they can turn out good. "They had forgotten me, but Daisy glanced up and held out her hand...I looked once more at them and they looked back at me, remotely, possessed by intense life." Gatsby started out the night scared that after all this time, it wouldn't turn out the way he had imagined. Even though it didn't turn out the way he'd imagined, it still turned out a good night.
ReplyDeleteWhen we try to attain a goal, we imagine a lot of scenarios about how good it will be. I think Gatsby let his imagination get the best of him. He didn't think about how things had changed, he assumed everything would be the same as when he last saw Daisy. Gatsby believed the reunion would be perfect like the last time he saw Daisy but it just ended up being awkward at first.
ReplyDeleteI think F. Scott Fitzgerald is trying to get the reader to understand that you have to base things off reality. Gatsby forgot to include in his imaginations the fact that him and Daisy hadn't talked in years. If he remembered this, he would have assumed the reunion would be a little different.
I agree with Shayna that gatsby had believed the reunion would be as if nothing has changed, but he had failed to remember that people change over the years.
DeleteI think that Gatsby had a different expectation of him and daisy that was different than the reality. While in the pursuit he did could only picture the expectation that he had of the two of them. However, when he finally got her, she didn't live up to his expectation causing it to be less satisfying than what he had imagined. He had chased her for years, thrown countless parties, spent an unbelievable amount of money, only to be disappointed in the end.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious, that Gatsby is a representation of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Daisy is his wife. He was in pursuit of her for years, she left him when he stopped making money, only to come back when he sold another book. After awhile, he realized that being with her was less satisfying than he had expected due to the fact that she ended up in a mental hospital.
The message that Fitzgerald is conveying is that reality doesn't always meet your expectations. Also, in most times, the prusuit of the goal is more intriguing than the attainment of the goal.
I wouldn't say that Gatsby was completely disappointed in the end because as Nick was leaving Gatsby and Daisy were holding hands and were so immersed into each other they barely noticed him. While it does mention that Daisy fell short of Gatsby's expectations, I wouldn't say she was a complete disappointment.
DeleteGatsby was so infatuated with Daisy, that he created a perfect idea of him and Daisy together. Gatsby was in pursuit of this Daisy and upon having obtained he real Daisy he was let down when she did not meet his expectations and the perfect relationship he had in mind.
ReplyDeleteF. Scott Fitzgerald's message is that we create false realities of what could happen and when that does happen it is not as exciting as we hope it will be. This creates a feeling that is lees than fulfilling.
I agree with Bailey about Gatsby being let down by the real Daisy but I also think Gatsby was let down by the real Gatsby. As in that he was let down by the way he was acting and how their meeting wasn't like how he planned/imagined it.
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ReplyDeleteF. Scott Fitzgerald is showing how the hunt for something can be so much more enjoyable. You can imagine how perfect it will be when you obtain it. How your life will change forever. But,once you obtain said goal, reality kicks in. It's not as enjoyable as you hoped. You were much more happy in imagination land. For example when he first met Daisy. He felt uncomfortable and awkward. Just goes to show, you can dream about something all you want, but sometimes, reality will kick you in the butt and disappoint you.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Brenden in the sense that Gatsby's imagination got the better of him and twisted daisy into the perfect girl. This made him eager reach his goal only to realize the reality of the situation. He was a victim of his own imagination.
DeleteI disagree with brenden because i believe that Gatsby at the end of his meet with Daisy was happy because they went back to the way they were.
DeleteI believe gatsby was scared that he loved this woman so much that he would give anything to see her but when he did he was to nervous and scared that he was going to say something stupid that it was ackward at first but then after the ackwardness they go back to the way they always were laughing and having a good time to the point to where they didn't even realize Nick was with them. I believe the message F.Scott Fitzgerald is trying to tell his readers is that love never goes away it might take a moment to go back go it but it will always be there
ReplyDeleteI believe Gatsby's underwhelming feeling with meeting Daisy is due to the way his mind works. In his pursuit of Daisy, he had built up the idea of their meeting. He was used to his own extravagant parties where everything was a big deal. He had surely imagined his meeting as some grand event, not a simple get together.
ReplyDeleteAlso, when making a plan, one tends to imagine an ideal scenario. Gatsby has probably thought of himself as a "smooth talker." In all reality, he has not accounted for the pressure of the meeting (under which he cracks). For Gatsby, the underwhelming nature of this meeting is due to his own mentality.
I see where this reflects Fitzgerald's own life. After he finally achieved his goal of getting his wife, she goes on to continue in pressuring him to get more money. Their relationship seemed to be always under pressure. This couldn't have been the way Fitzgerald had imagined his marriage. Who would want that strain on their life? After achieving his goal, the time afterward was opposite of what he hoped. His characters in The Great Gatsby reflect this.
I think that his feelings for Daisy can be tied to the common thought of "boys love the chase." It sounds terrible, but is very true in this case. Gatsby loves the idea of chasing/pursuing Daisy, but once he has her there nothing exciting left. Before it was a game, like could he get her, could he not and it was almost fun to him and miserable because he wants her. It was a game of the mind and heart, but he never had an answer. An answer would make it final and real.
ReplyDeleteI agree with most of Taylor's view. I mean, if you look at this from the authors point of view, you see he tried so hard to get this woman that was awful. And when he did she was portrayed negatively in his novels so we can infer that's how she was in real life, but Fitzgerad kept writing novels and doing drugs, giving his life away, to make her stay with him. So yeah, something sounds like a great idea and turns out to be not so great, but that doesn't stop the men from trying to make these women happy.
DeleteI believe that Gatsby loved the chase of Daisy more than he actually wanted to be with her. He loved the chase because is was a game trying to get her, but once he and Daisy were alone in Nick's house, he didn't know what to say to her because he was probably afraid that she might not even like him the way she used to when they were in Louisville. When Gatsby was chasing Daisy he was playing different scenarios in his head. Once he had Daisy alone, it probably wasn't what he had imagined in his head so he was scared.
ReplyDeleteThis relates to Fitzgerald's life by his book not being published when he first sent it in. Fitzgerald probably imagined his book being published the first time he sent it in because he worked really hard one it. But he had to edit and revise it.
Gatsby had created this image of daisy and him being the perfect couple. Essentially creating his idea of the perfect daisy. But when they were alone he was let down because the real daisy wasn't the one he had planned for and created in his mind. Fitzgerald's message is that we as humans are used to getting what we want so we create these false images of a perfect relationship, a relationship that we want. But when we obtain this relationship we realize that it's not what we expected it to be. Creating a sense of false hope.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree that as humans, we do create a sense of false hope around most things in our lives, I don't agree with the fact that F. Scott belives that humans get everything they want. This scene specifically, actually Gatsbys entire existance, shows that anyone rarely gets what they want.
DeleteI believe that Fitzgerald is giving a subtle hint towards figuring out the complex and somewhat self contradicting personality of Gatsby. By indicating that the thrill would be lost once Gatsby has attained his end goal I believe it shows that Gatsby is a man that lives for the chase. He likes pursuing goals relentlessly. This also is shown when he makes up his mind that he wants to pursue wealth. Yet, now that he's accomplished this goal of wealth he throws these extravagant parties only to remain separate from the crowds and observing his guests giving me the impression that the lavish lifestyle has begun to lose its shine in his eyes. Ultimately, the end goal isn't as satisfying because it brings the burden of boredom. You are no longer clawing your way towards something, you simply sit alone at the top. There's also a sort of depressing thought to being on top because if you aren't satisfied with your life while you're on top then you lack any goals that would give you the hope you're life will get better, goals give you at the very least the pursuit of happiness.
ReplyDeleteI like this view of the situation as an insight on Gatby's personality, rather than his expectations; never thought of it that way!
DeleteThe pursuit is almost always better than the attainment of the goal. Everyone has these crazy ideas of what the goal is therefore they work excessively to get there. Once Gatsby had the chance to talk to daisy all he had imagines of her was now changing into who she really was and the idea of her not being perfect is what I believe made him so scared he was afraid to talk to her.
ReplyDeleteA message the author is trying to give his audience in this chapter is that people can be completely different than you think. No matter how much you want them to be different and perfect they may not be. Everything you ever expected of someone may not be their true character.
I think the message the author is trying to get across is that not everything works out how things are planned. Like everyone basically said, Gatsby had this idea of how things would go and it didn't turn out as planned. He was nervous, as any guy would be, because he loved Daisy and thought everything would be perfect and it would be as easy as it was with them before. That's not the case. But when Nick returns the mood between Gatsby and Daisy is quite different, I don't know what went on, but something changed. I don't really think Gatsby is all about the chase though, I don't know what's going to go on later in the book but I'd like to believe he will continue to go after Daisy. So, things didn't go as planned, but maybe the outcome leads to something better?
ReplyDeleteAlthough I like the optimism, I have to say that the outcome of their meeting was mostly Gatsby's fault. He built his expectations to an unattainable level; even if he hadn't, Daisy herself probably would've ruined it.
DeleteThe pursuit of a goal often inspires a rush of excitement and purpose. This is exactly what Gatsby felt as he tried to woo Daisy, however, he was let down in the end because of what he believed would be a perfect relationship fell through. Once he had achieved his goal, reality had set in, this was no fairytale and he would not live happily ever after with Dasiy as he had planned.
ReplyDeleteFitzgerald wants to convey the message that there is no perfect romance or relationship, no love at first sight. What Gatsby felt was only infatuation, and when he realized it, he was severely disappointed.
When it comes to goals, the attainment of the goal may be a lot less satisfying than imagining the goal. This can be because when you imagine a goal, you imagine it in the best way possible. Then you get a sort of excitement as you go on to pursue that goal. When you actually attain it, it may not be exactly how you imagined it so it will be a lot less satisfying .
ReplyDeleteF. Scott Fitzgerald uses these chapters to show the idea that not everything will turn out how you imagined it. On page 84 Gatsby threw extravagant parties hoping that Daisy would walk in, however when she didn't he had to change his plans. He asked the narrator to invite her over so that she could meet him and see his house. All the time he spent waiting he probably envisioned how the day that he met her would go. Then when he finally met her it wasn't what he planned.
Gatsby finally being able to meet with daisy is less satisfying than the build up to meeting her because he adds more and more details onto his plan so that anything less isn't as satisfying.
ReplyDeleteThe message that F.Scott Fitzgerald is trying to send is to not wait for the perfect moment. This is shown when Gatsby is a little unsatisfied with his meeting with daisy. Page 101 says "there must have been moments even that afternoon when daisy tumbled short of his dreams." this shows how he waited so long that even the person he waited for didn't appear to be what he had hoped for. Hes trying to tell the reader to not make the same mistake.
Gatsby's pursuit of Daisy is more satisfying then his attainment of her because during his pursuit, there is an element of mystery and optimism. Before Gatsby meets her, he is able to dream of how beautiful and perfect she would be, but once he does finally meet her, he is faced with the reality that she is a human with flaws and she might not be as perfect as he had imagined.
ReplyDeleteI think Fitzgerald is sending a message that he experienced the same thing in his own life. Fitzgerald spent his entire life chasing wealth and fame. He was obsessed with becoming rich and enjoyed working to obtain that, but once he reached wealth and fame, his life wasn't as enjoyable as he had hoped and he never became truly satisfied.
I really like what Dakota Iseral said about the pursuit of a goal giving you purpose. I think that's very true because when one is working towards a goal, he/she knows exactly what he/she wants to do and what is to become of it.
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ReplyDeleteWhen goals are being compiled in the brain, they are most times imagined more extreme than what reality will allow to occur. The best way possible of something occurring is the way the the goal is going to be thought out. When a goal is being attained and it doesn't meet the exact thought one had, the satisfactory rate is going to decrease. Just like with Gatsby and Daisy. Gatsby had a goal of meeting Daisy and everything going perfect, just like the way he imagined, but when all of it actually occurred he was less satisfied than when imagining the occurrence.
ReplyDeleteI believe Fitzgerald is trying to convey a message that reality doesn't need to be ignored when a goal or any sort of fantasy is being thought of.If so, disappointment is going to occur at the end. Gatsby did so when imagining this "perfect woman" Daisy and then once he met her reality and imagination collided. He seemed to not like that very well. Meeting the real Daisy and not the fantasy girl he imagined, didn't go so well for Gatsby. I believe this could tie into the way people were back then. Responsibilities and reality in general was being ignored while people were drinking in public and just partying all the time. The message being conveyed is just a sense of common sense, if you think about it.
Most everything anyone does is seen through rose colored glasses, this is especially true with difficult or next to impossible tasks. Jay, while a hopeful romantic at heart, knew that the chances of him every coming within breathing distance of Daisy was next to impossible, which made it such an entrancing idea to peruse. F. Scott is trying to illustrate the fact that humans as a whole find things far more wonderful when we feel like we cannot have them. On top of that, the scene when Gatsby and Daisy finally meet, the awkward tension is present because both have imagined this moment with the person they had met five years ago. Neither Daisy nor Gatsby are the same person they were on that fateful night. F. Scott also illuminates the fact that nostalgia is a dirty liar and paints the past as better than it actually was.
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