Discussion 1 of 5
Can Characters Depict the Author’s Ideals?
Through characters' conversations and Yossarian’s narration, Joseph Heller is able to capture the futility of war. Most characters within the first eight chapters share a similar view of war with the exception of The Texan. What are some examples that Heller uses to show how the characters view war? Why do you think Heller uses military characters to get his ideas of war across to the reader as opposed to using characters that are known for their anti-war and anti-violent beliefs, such as hippies or a group of religious zealots?
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I guess I will go ahead and start the conversation. In the first eight chapters many characters are traumatized by the war. Yossarian hates the war so much that he fakes an illness just to stay away from the war (that is until the Texan drove him and everyone else out of the hospital). Yossarian is also convinced that everyone is wanting to kill him, the war has really taken its toll on him, he can't wait to leave. Hungry Joe is another character that is one of the most affected by the war. He has shrieking nightmares every night that keep most of the camp up. Hungry Joe was an Air Force hero though, he had flown more combat tours of duty than any other hero the air force had.
ReplyDeleteI think Heller uses military characters rather than anti-war characters, because military characters would actually have the experience and are actually living through this war. The message is much more powerful from people who are actually experiencing these terrible things.
The setting makes everything much more realistic while reading the book. I can picture the conditions in the camp, I can sense the terror Yossarian faces when he climbs into his spot in the plane and realizes how hard it would be for him to get to the escape hatch.
I think the author started the book in a hospital to ease us into the setting. It would be pretty gruesome for us to get a first impression about Yossarian when he is on the battle field.
From his writing I really didn't get the impression that all soldiers were on their own personal agenda. I sensed that they all wanted to get out of there, but I feel like the personal agenda type of characters were Lieutenant Scheisskopt and Lieutenant Milo Minderbinder. I feel like the more powerful the character, the more I sense that they have their own personal agenda.
- Hayley Leach
I agree with Hayley in that many of the characters introduced in the first eight chapters are deeply and negatively affected by the war. Yossarian is affected a great deal and fakes a liver problem to stay away from the danger as long as possible. Dunbar also hides from the combat and prolongs his stay in the hospital by "falling down on his face in order to get his meals brought to him in bed." (7) I also agree with Hayley that Heller uses characters who are actually fighting the war instead of anti-war groups to portray his feelings on war because the soldiers are seeing it all firsthand. It is easy for individuals who are not fighting a war to give their negative opinions on it. However, the military characters are actually seeing combat rather than speculating on it. The setting gives me the idea that the war is dragging on and is not close to ending (Yossarian's and the other characters' hospital stays reiterate this.) The characters seem to goof around in their tents by playing games, teasing each other, watching movies, getting drunk, chasing ladies, and trying to find excuses to get themselves out of flying any more missions. By beginning the story in this setting rather than on a battlefield/in combat, he does convince me that war is useless and every solider has their own personal agenda and is just trying to pass the time.
ReplyDeleteI think the main part of the first eight chapters that convinces the reader that war is useless and the soldiers believe so too is the argument between Doc Daneeka and Yossarian when Yossarian is trying to convince Doc Daneeka he is crazy. He keeps telling him to ask everyone else and to just look at him because he's obviously crazy. This is when the whole Catch-22 is brought up about everyone being crazy until they realize they are actually crazy because that makes them sane. He even brings up the fact of Orr being very crazy but the same thing applies. He can't leave until he asks to leave but once he asks to leave he isn't crazy enough to leave. The fact that Yossarian is trying so hard to find a loophole out of this war really depicts how stuck the soldiers feel in war and how useless it is to be there when the only thing keeping them there is their insanity.
ReplyDeleteAlso I feel like it was a great choice to use actual soldiers to show how awful war is because most people get the impression that soldiers are for war and such because they put themselves in the place of it. This gives off the impression that war is okay is these people believe it's okay and that anti-war people around are just crazy. To see it shown through these soldiers eyes though, is really mind-opening for everyone because to see just how much the people who put themselves in the middle of war hate the war really shows how awful the war really is.
For starting the novel in the hospital I agree that it was a slight ease into the awful setting of the war but I also think it's to show a cause effect type of pattern backwards. Heller showed his readers what was to come of the war first by putting everyone in a hospital because that's a realistic setting for anyone in the war and I think starting it in a hospital is even more gruesome than starting it in combat if you really think about it because these soldiers have already been injured. They have already seen the effects of war and that's what makes them want out so badly.
I agree with what Cat is saying about beginning the novel in a backwards cause-and-effect type motion. I think this does a good job of showing how sick of the war that the soldiers are and also gives the reader a good sense of Yossarian's character. I know that Yossarian is the protagonist in this particular book and is negatively effected by the war, but the way he is portrayed while he is pretending to be ill in the hospital makes him not a very likeable character to me. Heller did a great job of convincing me that the characters thought the war was useless due to the fact that they spend the majority of their time in the first few chapters talking about completely nonsensical things and pretending to be ill. I also definitely got the impression that many of the characters had their own agendas because the entire chapter about Doc Daneeka was devoted to him talk about his practice and getting back to his office. He even mentions lying to the United States Military about his physical condition when he was drafted. Yossarian also only thinks of himself on multiple occasions and how the war is affecting him. He lacks the ability to view the big picture. During the part in which the characters were discussing who the enemy was actually shooting at, Yossarian wouldn't accept the fact the enemy was trying to kill all the Americans. He was convinced that they were all just aiming for him. It could be a good thing that he is concerned for his safety, however his lack of empathy for others and his self-centered attitude gives me the impression that he does in fact have his own agenda and makes him less likeable as a character.
ReplyDeleteI agree with what many have said about the hospital scene in the beginning of the novel. It is a backwards cause and effect but it also eases the readers into the book. The book starts off with a very negative view on war, because many of the soldiers are faking illnesses to stay out of the line of fire.
ReplyDeleteWith Heller using military characters in this book, the reader gets to see the effects of war on a more personal level. Like Hannah has said before me, someone on the outside can say something negative about something even when they have never experienced it. The reader gets a more true outlook when the characters are people who are actually fighting the fight.
Now Heller did a marvelous job convincing me that the was is useless because the men who are supposed to be fighting, are trying every way in the world not to be. Furthermore I completely agree with what Meagan has said about the men having personal agendas. To give an example of one, Yossarian's personal agenda is to keep his own hide safe and in one piece. To quote Meagan "He lacks the ability to view the big picture." It's mentioned that in the book he didn't care if the mission's target was hit, he only cared that he made it back to base camp. So personally I do not like the main character, I find him very weak and self-centered.
Heller uses multiple different characters to display the idea that war is negative. Especially with Yossarian's situation, it shows how war doesn't only affect those physically, but also mentally and emotionally. The main example can be shown through Yossarian faking a liver condition to avoid confrontation. I think since Heller used military characters to portray war instead of hippies or religious zealots it shows the most accurate representation of what it means to be at war. Anyone can express their opinions on war or their beliefs, but by showing an experience through those fighting it really points the focus towards the issues with war and draws readers into the mindset of what it was like for soldiers. Heller could have have told this story through any character, but by doing it from a soldier's perspective it creates the atmosphere of the insanity of war.
ReplyDeleteI feel that by beginning the novel in a hospital rather than in a battlefield displays what Heller is trying to reveal war is. Yes, there are battles in war, but most stories don't reveal one of the major issues the war: the mental and emotional stability of those fighting. A battlefield setting would make an epic war novel, but a hospital setting full of soldiers battling to keep their sanity is much more gruesome than any battlefield.
I think that Heller did an excellent job of showing that war is useless. The soldiers that are fighting seem as if they don't even want to be in the war. So what is the point if soldiers have their own personal agenda? He made reader's question the war's intentions and the entire purpose of war.
While there are several different examples that illustrate the general view on the war, Yossarian faking a serious liver condition is the best. It shows how irrelevant and unnecessary the actual military members think the war is; Yossarian would honestly rather lay in a hospital bed and try to convince a group of doctors that he is a very sick man than fight in a war for his country, and I think that speaks volumes.
ReplyDeleteAs for why Heller uses actual military characters vs. hippies or other well-known anti-war groups, I think it's because it provides readers with a purer idea of what the war is really like, and how negatively it impacts those directly involved in it.
Like Katelyn said, anyone can have a negative opinion about war, but when that negative opinion is coming from the people who are actually apart of it, it's more powerful.
I think that by making the setting a hospital instead of a battlefield, Heller immediately introduces the idea of war as an ominous, unfavorable topic, whereas if the setting were a battlefield, the reader would assign a more meaningful connotation to the topic.
During the first eight chapters Helper uses a variety of settings and characters to capture the futility of war. He does this by showing aspects of war through the American dream, politics and strategic wording. First of all he drove me insane with the literal circles of phrases in one chapter then later on in another as well as the dialogue. I think this is repetition to insure that his ideas aren't lost on anyone also the fact that war and militarism can be confusing and parallel to itself. War is also about politics. That being said the America government can be very selfish when it comes to their troops and wanting then to stay troops. Hungry Joe is a result of this. Suffering from nightmares and paranoia, claustrophobia and more, the US gov does nothing about the state of his mental disorder proving why yossarian had to invent a liver condition to get out of combat. The catch 22 is a hypocritical circle in which people are trapped in, in various ways. Last, war is somehow a bit of an American dream. Soldiers fight for their country, for no reason other than to support. Early on the book talks about a man who made himself into a colonel by not much other than doing nothing. The sheer strive and ambition of these men alone can raise a country so that it stands on its own.
ReplyDeleteThe main examples of how Heller portrays how characters view the war have already been stated by nearly all of my classmates above. Such as Yoassarian faking a liver illness to remain in the hospital and out of active duty, as well as Yossarian’s overwhelming paranoia/belief that everyone is out to get him and only him, and the last obvious example being Hungry Joe who has terrible mental trauma from the war that causes him to have strong nightmares in which he screams every night. These all go to show that the war is as mentally destructive as it is physically. True, the men could die or be injured (such as the Soldier in White), which would obviously be bad, but it’s all the time spent worrying about the injuries/death and seeing it happen to others that really messes everyone up, I’d dare to say maybe even more than an injury to oneself would. As for the setting starting in a hospital I really like and agree with what Katelyn said, “A battlefield setting would make an epic war novel, but a hospital setting full of soldiers battling to keep their sanity is much more gruesome than any battlefield.” That is a strong point that I believe is correct and that Heller was trying to get across. By starting in the hospital it gives the readers a chance to get to know the characters personally, outside of their war specifications. And when you get to know the characters you get the underlying remnants of their original personalities, which only amplifies how they have been distorted by their fear and resentment for the war, and all that they have seen. The other settings are mostly just around the tents and such playing games, flirting with (highly questionable) women, drinking, roughhousing and conversing with one another, and constantly asking when they will be done with their missions and go home. As much as I would like to believe that all soldiers don’t have their own personal agendas, Heller has made the evidence point nowhere else. In these chapters each man does their own thing. Yoassarian strongly believes that everyone is out to get just him, when in fact the enemy is out for whoever they can manage to kill. And don’t get me started on Doctor Daneeka. Doc Daneeka’s favorite lines are, “He thinks he’s got troubles? What about me?” (32) His only troubles are the fact that he isn’t at home making money with his practice; mean he even has assistants who practically do all of his work for him. And yet despite all the self-centeredness presented by Heller, I just cannot be convinced that war is completely useless. Maybe if I was able to step back with an unbiased mind I could, but I can’t. And lastly, I think Heller used actual soldiers who knew what war was about, knew firsthand the unfair, brutal truths about war rather than hippies and religious zealots who only knew what they have heard or assumed, because it gives the story the an unfiltered authority. The hippies and religious zealots are just against the war because of their values, yet many of the men in war don’t have such values restraining them and are still disgusted by the war for many of their own PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED reasons.
ReplyDeleteDuring the first eight chapters Heller uses many different interactions between characters and different settings to show how his characters negatively view war. The letters that soldiers send home are very sentimental and necessary to keep a sense of connection and hope alive in their relatives back home and it takes a strong sense of appreciation for the role soldiers play in war in order to review and censor their letters home correctly, yet Yossarian's view of war as unimportant and comical is shown through the way he defiles the soldier's letters through unnecessary censoring and negligence. I think Heller uses military characters to get his ideas of war across instead of anti-war activists because anti-war statements have a more powerful meaning and stance if portrayed by a legitimate member in the world of war vs. someone on the outside looking in to judge the situation without first-hand knowledge of the actions taking place.
ReplyDeleteSetting affected my interpretation of the war by changing it from ridiculous to careless and unhelpful. Beginning in the hospital where Yossarian was placed for a non-legitimate ailment knowing that he was an important war leader was disheartening in the fact he should've been on the battle field where he could do his duty and fight for the success of his country not the hospital where he could hide because "everyone was out to get him" and because he would die mid flight. If it were pro-war, it would've started in the combat area and Yossarian would've won a fight against the enemy and been seen heroic; however, since it's anti-war, it started in a vital but vulnerable place and contained unnecessary situations such as Yossarian's false ailment, and nonsensical people such as the Texan.
I believe that Heller used his characters very well in explaining his dislike for war since Yossarian does as much complaining as possible to get out of flying again and through the use of a non-existent Catch-22 justifying unfair actions taken against the soldiers due to fear. Most of the characters introduced just wanted to do their own thing. Doc Daneeka didn't want to just be a field med since he had his own thriving business before being drafted, we all know Yossarian just wants to go home, Nately just wants to be with his girl in Rome, and Hungry Joe just wants to be a photographer. No one is really worried about the war, they just want to get out and back to the life they should be living.
The author, Joseph Heller, uses a variety of characters and gives us different perspectives on the war. Yossarian obviously detests the war because he's constantly coming to the hospital saying he has a liver illness that just won't go away. Yossarian is so set on his opinion that everyone is out to kill him. In a way I agree with him. Throughout the book so far almost all of the soldiers have their own agenda. Also Hungry Joe has become mentally impaired. Just like Hayley stated, Joe has flown the most tours and should've been able to have gone home a few tours ago but the amount of missions. Whenever the amount of missions goes up Hungry Joe stops having the nightmares. Every other day he haves screaming nightmares that keep most of the camp awake.
ReplyDeleteHeller used military characters because they actually have the facts to base their opinions on. The military are the ones actually experiencing the war. The hippies are basing their opinions based on things they have heard without knowing they're true or not. The military characters are primary sources going through the whole gruesome ordeal.
Within the first eight chapters there aren't any 'bloody' scenes like I thought there'd be considering it's a book based on the war.
I honestly don't know why the author started in the hospital when I read the question. However, when I rad Cat's interpretation it clicked in a way for me. I agree with her that it was to show a cause and effect pattern going backwards. It was like a foreshadowing of events to come and how bad the war could get.
Heller convinced me that overall the war is useless and that right from the start all the soldiers have their own agenda no matter how small. For example look at Coronal Cathcart, he keeps raising the missions because he wants to please the higher-ups by risking his men for the most dangerous missions. He only cares about how he looks and not if his men will live or die.